Crest Identification

[tunabyte13]

Here is a picture of my family ring that has been passed down from father to son for many generations. ( I believe it was created in the 16th century). My family crest is the front crest(Linden Trees) and I know my family history but I do not know what the second crest means.  I assume that it is the crest of the wife of the orginal owner of the ring.  I was told that the crown(5 points) on top meant the owner of the ring was a knight.  Could anyone please help me in my family research and tell me what that second shield means and what family it might represent.

[DominikS]

Hi and a warm welcome to the forum!

Could you give us a bit more information? Do you know your family originated from the German area? Also, a name would be really helpful. If you don't want to publicly put the name here, just drop me a private message.

[tunabyte13]

Hi Dominik,

My family name is "von der Linde".  I know much information about my family name and history, but I don't know what the second crest on the ring stands for or what family it might represent.  My family is from Prussia.  There were many ritters, grafs. furst, and kurfurst in my ancestry.  I was told that the second crest might represent another family of nobility but thats all I know about it.  There was a Ritter in the 16th century named Hans Jurgen von der Linde who actually became a Kurfurst of Brandenburg before he died.  I believe the ring originally belonged to him.  My father told me he remembers a family book as a boy with that name on the front of it and it was lost during WWII.  He said it had much of our family history in it but he does not remember very much.

[DominikS]

Hi again,

Thanks a lot for the additional info!

I don't doubt all the information you have, but I have some question marks when I read this:
- In the 16th century, the Margraves/Kurfürsten of Brandenburg have been exclusively from the House of Hohenzollern. I don't see any "von der Linde" mentioned anywhere there. Also, the crest shows no Hohenzollern elements (squared with fields 1&3 silver, 2&4 black).
- The only "von der Linde" coat of arms I could find is different from the one depicted in your ring. I could find a record of a "diagonal tilia branch, 3 leaves on top, 2 leaves below" (rough translation).
- For a ring of an alleged noble family, the workmanship seems crude.

That I don't find additional recorded "von der Linde" coats of arms does of course not necessarily mean that they didn't exist, as there are no "official" recordings like in the UK, e.g.

Do you know how and when this family book came into the family? Unfortunately, there have been numerous artists who used their gift rather to scam people instead of doing proper research. This has a history of more than 200 years in Germany and more than one family has bought a family book designed especially for them with countless fictionary tales of knights and noblemen. My friend Bernhard has a small list here (in German).

I hope this is not the case here, but some things just don't fit.

[tunabyte13]

Thank you for the reply Dominik.  The information I have on their titles comes from ancestrial files from archives from Berlin and also churches in Germany.  I have a book written about Hans Jurgen von der Linde that said he was a Kurfurst of Brandenburg for a short time before he died.  Also, Christian von der Linde was named as a Kurfurst of Brandenburg in information I received from the Geheimes Staatsarchiv Pruessischer Kulturbesitz.  He was later a pastor at the St. Marien church in Berlin and there is a large bell that hangs there today donated by him.

The crest you are speaking of was used by some of the von der Linde family in later generations.  I have found 13 variations of our family crest.  The reson I think ours is so old is because how crude it is and was told the design.  I have been told before that the design of our crest goes back to the 13th century.  Also, the titles I mentioned are all from the files received from the archive in berlin.  I am having the microfilm converted to electronic format and I can share with you if you would like after I receive it back next week.  It was too hard to go to the library all the time to view the film on their reader.  I have to go now but will give you some more info later.

[DominikS]

That's great news, most of the genealogy already done!

Still, I am having trouble identifying the other part of the arms in the ring.
It looks like red on bottom, squared above, then again red, then something indecipherable. It might continue with once again squared and then red?
Can anyone find anything on this combination? It would be in German "In Rot zwei geschachte Schrägbalken" I guess?

[tunabyte13]

Here is a chart I found that shows my heraldry.  It is the only time I have seen the crest my family line uses published.



Here is a crest that another von der Linde line uses that I have been in contact with.

[tunabyte13]

Here is also the cover of a book about the ritter and later Kurfurst that I think my ring might have belonged to at one time.  It mentions in the book that his son used the family ring to put a seal on his casket before burial.  Also, here is a picture of the inside title.  It also talks about him as a Kurfurst toward the end of the book.

[DominikS]

Thanks a lot for the additional information.

I am now sure the following is the case: your ring depicts the coat of arms of the family Lindenau.
I could verify the blason being (roughly translated) "Party per fess, silver top, green bottom, a tilia with green leaves and silver trunk, surrounded by 3 red roses in the lower field, the roses 2:1.".
The German original reads "Geteilt von Silber und Grün, darin eine grün belaubte Linde mit silbernem Stamm, um den Stamm im unteren Feld 3 rote Rosen (2:1)".

The family von Lindenau had 3 branches, of which the latest vanished in 1842, as Prof. Mielke and Mrs. Franz point out in their interesting works to be found here. They have also many depictions of the coat of arms, here would be another one.

Mannheim University kindly provides us with the 1717 edition of Philipp Jakob Spener's work you quoted: link.
The page in question can be seen here again. The hatching there also supports the colours of the blason from the other sources I found.

You also showed the coat of arms with the branch instead of the tree I mentioned earlier (the only "von der Linde" arms I could find so far).

Now I still have the problem of seeing a connection between the "von der Linde" family and the "Lindenau" family. Maybe your research and information can shed a light there?
Plus, the original question of the allegedly married partner is still unanswered. But as we now probably know the real source, the genealogical research could be easier. I could also write to Prof. Mielke if you want to.

[tunabyte13]

Thank you for all this great information Domink.  I'll have to do more research into my own crest as well now.  I always thought that there were 3 linden trees on the bottom.  There is a story shared by all the von der Linde lines that they represent 3 brothers accused of a capital offense.  3 Linden tress were planted upside down each one representing a brother.  The tree that died would reveal the guilty brother but all trees grew.

I had no idea that those were roses.  Now I have to find the connection between the Lindenau and von der Linde lines.  I have seen many changes to how the name was used, so it makes me wonder if the Lindenau family is another branch of the von der Linde line.  The records I have from the archive in berlin have ancestors back to the year 1300.  I have also been in contact with another von der Linde in Germany that says he has some papers with mention of our name to the 11th century.


I would greatly appreciate if you wrote to Prof. Meike.  If you could please ask if they know of any connection.  There must be a common ancestor at some point since we share the same crest.  Also, maybe they could shed some light as well on the unknown crest on my family ring.

Best Wishes,
Kurt von der Linde

[tunabyte13]

Here is some new information a relative found today. 

[DominikS]

As I already wrote as a reply to the e-mail you sent me: I doubt this theory. The impression of the ring would have to be horizontally mirrored to get the final image. Then the symmetrical Lindenau arms would be in the (traditional German) usual visual left place. And the arms on the right would be mirrored and wouldn't match the orientation of the Trebra arms.
But a proper genealogical research should shed more light into the mistery than guessing arms

[tunabyte13]

I flipped the image Dominik.  Here is the correct view when stamped.

[tunabyte13]

Here are a few of the other crest von der Linde's use.  I have seen about 13 variations including mine.






The above won belonged to a very prominent von der Linde.  His title was Kurfurstlich Landrentmeister and he was also the pastor at St. Marien Kirche in Berlin where a bell still hangs today that he donated.  Also ther is an Epitaph about him at the church.  One of only 17 to survive the fires caused by bombing in WWII.  It is made of stone unlike many made of wood that burned in the fires.

[DominikS]

You know the difference between the blazon and the final "picture", right? So the last three would be the very same arms, just depicted in different ways by different artists.
We still need to find out if there is a connection between the Lindenau arms in your ring and the Linde arms. Could you precisely prove you are a descendant of one of the bearers of any of the Linde arms you could find?